MadPriest has been raising all sorts of provocative issues on his blog today. PJ has been brave enough to take up the abortion issue in response...but I'm going to go her one better:
Marriage---What is it good for?
I read Grandmere Mimi's beautiful post about her 46th anniversary and it made me teary. That's what I wanted for myself. That's what everyone wants when they march down that aisle, I think.
But how many people really achieve it?
My friend Susie says that she believes it is mostly a matter of luck that you find a person with whom you can grow old---a person with whom you can learn, change, and grow without losing your own identity. I think she is right. I think luck has more to do with a happy marriage than any amount of hard work or commitment.
I have not been very lucky---or maybe I just wanted too much. Because, really, I wanted it all. Love. Friendship. Passion. Connection on all levels---spiritual, physical, emotional, and intellectual. Call me crazy...
It seems to me that only those with an unquenchable optimism can make a case for the institution of marriage--and yet, everywhere I turn, people keep getting married. Why?
If you are married, are you really happy? (And define "happy," please.) Do you see your spouse as your lover, best friend, soul mate---or more as a partner in the "family business"?
Is your marriage what you thought it would be when you made the commitment? And would you do it over again?
How much of your support for marriage is based on the legal and financial protections it gives you? (Right now, I'm not feeling too sanguine about those, but we'll leave that for another day...)
Most important---what do you tell your children about marriage in this day and age? What can I possibly say to my two beloved children about the "joys" of marriage?
I believe in love. I believe in commitment. But I don't much believe in marriage as an institution. (As a friend of mine says: "I support the institution of marriage, but I do not care to be institutionalized.")
I realize this stacks the decks against my GLBT friends, since, for the most part, they don't have the option of "institutionalizing" themselves. So tell me why you want to get married. (Leaving aside all the legal protections...that's a given.)
I will be allowing anonymous comments to this post. You can be as honest as you feel moved to be.
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38 comments:
(((Doxy)))
Well, so, uh, here's what I think, anyway.
Marriage as we know it here and now -- unarranged, based on love, and freely chosen by the two people who are entering into it -- is a fairly recent development.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. We live longer lives than ever, and people change. Sometimes they don't change. Sometimes one person changes and the other doesn't. Marriages are affected by economics, careers, children. Most of us are out in the world all day. We encounter other people. Stuff happens.
I think marriage is damned hard. I agree with you that a lot of luck is involved with finding someone you can stay with for life. I also think that if two people are mostly on the same page, they can make it work. Other people just can't.
A very wise woman (it was Grandmère Mimi) said, "no two situations are the same." Of course, she was talking about end-of-life issues, but the same philosophy can be applied here.
Can you tell I just drank an enormous amount of coffee? Apologies.
I'm having a bit of a cognitive disconnect. First, you remove the legal/fincancial protections from the equation. Then you say you believe in commitment, but not the institution of marriage. If you remove both the legal/financial protections and the concept of commitment from the institution, what's left? What remains to believe in or disbelieve in?
Jarred--I'm not discounting the legal protections, really. I just said that, other than those, why get married?
Why go to the state and ask for a piece of paper? That paper gives you legal/financial benefits---but is there any more to it than that?
I know a number of GLBT couples who have been together for decades. Nothing "makes" them stay together, other than love and commitment. They aren't bound by the piece of paper.
I just wonder if they are the "lucky" ones.
And I'm just musing. MadPriest's joke about marriage got me thinking...why does anyone bother?
I will be frank, the only reason I want the "piece of paper" is the legal protections. Because beyond that, I think it really is a meaningless piece of paper. (Though I'll readily admit that I'd slap most hetereosexual people who say that it's "just a piece of paper" because most of them don't acknowledge and aren't aware of the legal protections caveat.)
But to me, the real marriage is the commitment. It's the relationship that gets protected (well, at least in a legal sense) by that piece of paper.
I'm a hopeless romantic. I hope to meet a wonderful guy some day and that we fall in love and reach a point in our relationship where we decide to make a commitment to each other for the rest of our lives.
I'm also pragmatic in that I want to make this lifelong commitment with someone because I feel it is the safest and healthiest way for me experience the deep emotional, physical, spiritual, and sexual intimacy I desire from the core of my being. To be frank, experiencing that with someone and then having it all fall apart is hell. So it just makes sense to look for someone to share that with for the rest of your life.
The problem is, making that commitment and making it work out. The even worse part is that both people have to be prepared and willing to make and keep that commitment. (I know that from personal experience, and it's a painful lesson to learn from experience, as you well know.)
It's why I'm learning to be smarter. I'm looking to take things more slowly next time. I'm looking to have more dicussions up front. I'm looking to put that commitment off until I'm confident I'm in a relationship where both of us are critically aware of the work it takes to keep such a commitment and are ready and willing to put that work in. As the advice in my faith goes, "Give your word sparingly, knowing you will be expected to keep it." Next time around, I hope to follow it.
I'm not sure I answered your question, but I hope you'll find what I said worth reading regardless. ;)
I did. :-)
I've been married for 36 years. Sometimes we should have gotten divorced. Other times are better. Never what I'd imagined and hoped for. Two people living in the same house doing their own things separately.
Recently separated, so please excuse the slightly bitter flavor of my perspective...
I agree with your friend Susie, because Lord knows I worked my ARSE off, and it still didn't work. Something in Jarred's comment also struck a chord, the part about waiting, having more discussions up front, and ensuring that both parties are aware of the work that will be involved. The problem is, I thought we WERE both aware, but in my recent quest to take my share of responsibility for the breakup, I recognize that in reality, I overlooked a lot of really blatant signs...somehow, I thought I could keep the commitment going for both of us. So that puts us back to luck. And I can't underestimate the importance of a good background check, either!
When I was in college, I heard a campus evangelist giving a "don't have sex" speech say something to the effect that, in living and sleeping together, so many students give their relationships a level of intimacy that is reserved by God for marriage...so, when the relationship does not blossom into marriage, the breakup, instead of being a slightly painful memory, becomes more like a divorce, carrying with it all the attending unhappiness and sometimes, considerable financial implications as well. It made sense to me then, and it still does. If you are going to subject yourself to the risk of that kind of pain, then you need to be willing to take the risk of experiencing that kind of deep, abiding commitment as well.
I did see my husband more as a partner than a lover. I told a lot of people that, much like Grandmere Mimi, we fell in like, and love followed after...but now I don't know if it really did. I never saw him as a friend, in fact, I was acutely aware that I would not have chosen him for a friend were we not married.
It was never what I thought it would be, and at the present time, there is no way I would do it again. Not to him, and not to anyone else, either.
My support for marriage is based almost entirely on my experience growing up in a two parent home with parents who were deeply in love, kept no secrets from each other, and made it work every single day. I wanted what they have after 34 years together. I have wanted it so badly that I have latched on to a series of bad relationships, and been slower and more reluctant to get out when they turn sour, 'cause I'm not getting younger, you know? I honestly never gave a thought to the legal and financial protections, and frankly, those notions confuse me, because all I want now is OUT, and those legal and financial constraints are making it more difficult!
AS far as what to tell our son...I have no clue, other than that we loved each other once, and decided we couldn't live together. I'm certainly not going to tell him that his dad cheated on me. I don't know if it will cause him trauma, since he is only 3 and probably won't ever remember us being together, or if divorce and unwed parenthood are now so very common that he won't think twice about us not being together. I think about him growing up and wanting to get married someday, and I try to imagine telling him that it is okay to live with and have children with someone and not be legally committed, and I just can't imagine that. So, in spite of my current situation, I MUST still believe in the institution and the vows. I think I shall have to tell him that marriage is a reflection of God's unending and unwavering love for us (and hopefully by the time he is old enough it will be available to one and all!), but that since we are human beings and not God, sometimes we mess it up.
Doxy, I've had two marriages that ended with the husband leaving me. One addicted to drugs; the other fell in love with the teachers across the hall. Now I am in a relationship that works, and we not only have had a holy union service, we had a civil union service in Vermont during a family reunion - with the whole family in attendance.
After my second divorce, I made a list of things that I considered essential in a spouse - just five things. Same approximate age, non-smoker, non-drinker and in some sort of recovery/therapy program, religious and preferably affiliated with my church.
I fell in love with my partner the minute we met - took her a bit longer (a week). She is a week younger than me, she smoked for the first year of our relationship, she's been in recovery for 21 years and done lots of therapy, and she's a member of my denomination.
Before we had our holy union, we established ourselves with a therapist to help take care of problems that might arise as we began living together. We have seen that therapist several times and have resolved those problems. Now, we have learned how to talk about our feelings, our angers, our concerns, money, her son, my newly-found family and my god-children, my retail therapy.
We enjoy many of the same things and are learning to enjoy more things together and more things apart. Sex was wonderful until I had to begin medicine which has inhibited that a great deal. We cope with it with other kinds of physical intimacy and lots of laughter.
I think laughter is the key to a lot of things. Honesty is another. Being able to talk is another.
We chose the two commitment ceremonies because we felt we needed the support of our church family and our extended families. And, the legal and financial protections would be soooo nice, but they are not what makes our relationship a marriage - the joining to two people. I want a public commitment to which I am accountable and in which I am supported. Marriage gives/would give me that. We cherish our certificate of civil union - someday maybe the nation will honor it and call it what it is - marriage. Meanwhile, we live in a covenanted relationship. And, yeah, I think luck is a good word for it. Also grace!
Oh, deary, deary, me. In a few more months I'll be officially divorced from a man who was (and remains, though differently) one of my dearest, closest friends. We were definitely "partners in the family business" and that may be what we did best.
And yet, we are divorcing. We tried. Therapy -- together and separately -- prayer, marriage enrichment retreats, prayer, a library full of books on the topic, some more prayer ... we worked and worked. Sometimes harder than others. Honestly, I just think we were wrong for each other from day one. But we both really wanted it to work and so we tried and tried.
Our break-up breaks my heart. And I believe it is the best thing for both of us and, ultimately even for our son. (I hope, I pray, please God make it so). But here's the thing: I already know that I want to be married again. I have know idea who/when/how/where/why that would happen, but it is something I want. I love being partnered. Even when it was hard, I didn't hate it. I hated that we worked so hard at it and still hurt each other so deeply. But I can't help but think that with 15 years of experience under my belt -- and all that work -- I'll have a better idea next time around.
I'd love to fall head over heels in love. Maybe it will happen, maybe not. But I'd definitely love to try this life-long commitment thing again. For the chance to have a dear friend "to have and to hold" as the old words go.
I may be crazy ... (but it just may be a lunatic someone out there is looking for).
After 30 years in the institution I think it's good for lots, but that's not to say it's easy. The difficulties come from the fact that while marriage is absolutely a primary relationship--the spouse comes before all others--it's not our only relationship. Our spouse can't be everything; we still need friends and other people in our life. Being in love helps a marriage, but mutual respect keeps it going. Having the same basic values is essential, but being clear about being distinct individuals is too. I'm not sure my spouse is what most folks think of a soul-mate, but what I do know is that in all our years together we've been playing on the same team. We've been for each other, not in opposition to each other. I think a major problem in marriages lie with couples expecting both too much from each other (completing each other) and yet not enough from each other (in terms of support and respect).
Oh, and I forgot an important thing. There is a lot of luck involved!
Is your marriage what you thought it would be when you made the commitment?
No, but I would be surprised if it is for anyone. There are always surprises.
And would you do it over again?
Yes, I would. And I believe that's a key question.
Doxy, you know some of my story. We went through difficult periods, times when we argued more than was good.
One thing we did not do was nurse grudges once the blow-up was done. In a way the blow-ups served a good purpose, because there were no hidden undercurrents of resentment. It was all out in the open, and sometimes not pretty, but when it was over, it was over.
I think it's mostly a certain amount of good will on both sides and luck or the grace of God or whatever that makes a marriage work.
Resentment is an evil thing in a marriage - it corrodes it from the inside out.
My husband and I bear one another too much resentment after 18 years together, 17 married. We are trying to heal it, but I'm not sure I can.
My divorce fantasies don't involve another man - they involve me, in a white walled apartment, living with my kids, and taking care of my needs and the needs of my children.
I'm a pretty good mom, but I'm not such a good wife. Who knows that you won't make a good wife before you try it?
My marriage has been difficult enough that I don't think I'd immediately seek another one, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility either, if it ever comes to that.
I dunno.
And I believe that's a key question.
Mimi--that's a real tough one for me. Because, in a vacuum, I would say "yes" to Marriage #1, and "no" to Marriage #2.
But Marriage #2 has given me my beautiful children. If I said I would not marry their father again, it would feel to me as if I were saying that I would trade them as well...
Eileen--I am living your fantasy. It's wonderful. ;-)
I hope people will keep talking---I have so much more I want to say, but I was told this morning that the deadline I was given for a major project was wrong. By a week!
I have two days to finish 700 pages worth of editing. So please pray for me, and know I'll be back when I can...
I don't think I can even answer this question; I haven't ever been in a committed relationship, and I don't know what it is about me that hasn't made that possible yet.
That said, I would like to get married (to the right person, obviously!) as a sign to the community that I am both responsible for and answerable to someone. A marriage of true equals. Fairy tale? Possibly. Heck, probably, in my case. But I can still hope.
Hi Doxy,
I've been married to my college sweetheart for 25.5 years, we've been a couple for most of 30 years.
She's my best friend, biggest fan, lover, and confidante. She's also the chief financial officer of the family "corporation" (you don't want me doing the books) I trust her to the point that I haven't asked to look at the checkbook in decades.
Is this marriage what I expected? Hell no! She has three chronic illnesses, survived meningitis, several very serious illnesses, some amputations of fingers and toes (related to her illnesses) and a pulmonary hypertension. Our daughter was born 2.5 months premature and I wasn't sure my wife was going to survive the birth (long and scary story). Right now between the two of us we hold down 5 jobs to make ends meet and keep our daughter in college.
So, no, this is NOT the marriage I was expecting on that sunny day in June! LOL!
Would I do it again? Part of me sighs at that question. God, what spirit breaking ride it has been at times. Then I think "But the alternative is doing your life WITHOUT her". End of discussion.
Yes, I'd do it again.
I never consider the legal "protections" of marriage. But then I'm a guy. I'm married because I want to bind my life with this person.
What do I tell our 19 year old daughter about marriage? The truth. Some days it sucks. You need to be serious about entering into it. Sometimes it doesn't work out. Honesty and laughter are every bit as important as passion and sex.
It's why I want anyone who wants to be married to have the chance. I want everyone to have the marriage that works for them. Even if it's a marriage without the piece of paper if that's what works.
I'm sorry if this comes off sappy or if it appears that I'm gloating.
I'm not gloating. I'm celebrating one of the things in my life I've actually managed to get right.
I'll shut up now, I have to go kiss my wife good bye as she goes to work.
Peace
JP
Oy: that trouble.
I'm more ambivalent on this topic than almost anything, for many of the reasons all y'all have expressed. M and I were together from '83 to '96, married from '84 to '98, and I would have answered "No." to "Would you do it again?" for much of that time. We worked very hard at making a marriage, but finally gave up, having been broken in some ways, but not permanently.
Enough of my romantic survived that I still dream about fairy tales, but I now know, deeply, that they are only one thread woven in a far larger narrative, and my confidence in my abilities to keep our story going with another has been broken once. Stronger and wiser for it? Perhaps, but also grounds for prudence.
I think it would be good to be closer to another person, but I have no sense of it being a marriage. It's not children, nor money, nor any such thing I'd be looking for, I think, but more being open to sharing an adventure together.
As to the more general questions of marriage as civil institution, or blessed union, I'm not especially gloomy; if other people want to keep trying, by all means. It does appear that what gets called "marriage", or what serves in its place, is being re-created at a dizzying pace. It's also clear that its legal forms are not keeping up with our attitudes and behaviors.
Trust me, don't knock that piece of paper. We have had sufficient insults recently over being a lesbian couple, that its importance legally and socially is very, very, very clear to me.
I fell in love with my partner more than 10 years ago. At the time, she was my best friend, a kindred spirit, the only woman I had ever met who could finish my sentences and clarify my thoughts.
unfortunately, she was married. But she also fell in love with me, and had an epiphany of sorts in realizing that although her husband was (and is) a kind, good man, there was something in their relationship fundamentally missing for her, something that had never been satisfied.
They divorced and we have been a couple "for real" ever since.
We exchanged rings in the kitchen and made our private vows to each other.
yet still we would like to be married "for real". Partly as a social issue, to stand before our friends. And partly for the protections and rights, and so we will NOT to be insulted by border guards and functionaries. (Commitment ceremonies are nice enough, but hollow to us, since they don't carry all that social and legal freight).
But in personal ways, we are really married already. And the thing that surprised me most was how much work it is.
I think we were in a way lucky that we had to work through a lot of things to get to this point. For obvious reasons, coming to this relationship was a challenge, and took a lot of doing, and we had to be certain. So we learned several things that have served us well.
First, we learned that we have to be absolutely honest with each other all the time. We didn't have the luxury of being able to talk to anyone else during our closeted phase. Communication is key, even if topics are painful, or we disagree. And we never ever go to bed mad.
Second, we learned that we have to be very sensitive to each other's needs. There's a tremendous generosity in our relatinoship with each other, it is very much other-directed.
Third, we had to be able to trust implicitly.
Fourth, we have to be able to disagree and be independent. We are very different, and stubborn women. We have very different views of things like religion. (Fortunately we mostly agree on finance and politics!) We both need alone time to "do our own thing".
Finally, we realize we were incredibly lucky. I really do not think most people find a soul-mate the way my partner and I found each other. I cannot possibly imagine how empty my life would be without her.
And my partner, whom I adore and who adores me, nevertheless still mourns her marriage to that kind, good man; she knows that she could not longer be his wife, but she certainly regrets hurting him. How many of us would make the same decision in our 20s as our 40s? Her situation (and Doxy's, and others), make me a firm believer in the necessity of sane and civil divorce. Fortunately for my beloved, it was civil indeed, and they are still friends.
Call me a romantic, but yes, I believe in marriage.
IT
Maybe I should be "institutionalized"!
No, Doxy, you know my partner and I don't have the "piece of paper" option. Has it made a difference?
In terms of finances, yes. In terms of love and commitment, and joy and peace of mind - no.
But as it stands for GLBT folks - the "commitment" IS the piece of paper for us.
I know we'd both do it again.
Well, ((Doxy))) I don't think I've always been the best wife either, definitely fall short of that ideal woman in Proverbs. (LOL)
But, I love my husband. He's my best friend, and there have been times when I wanted to murder the man. Just teasing, but only partly.
I think any committment over time does take work, along with a huge dose of flexibility and plenty of forgiveness for the longterm. It can be hard!!
I married a man with three children from a previous marriage. Then we had three more together. The challenge of trying to blend families, and also dealing with financial stress, and all the baggage that can come with this is a story in and of itself.
But, overall, I think marriage is worth it. I've grown as a person, and in my relationship with the Lord in a way that I don't know that I would have personally as a single person. To be honest, among other things, I think marriage challenges our selfishness, just that tendency to always want our way.
It's no easy thing for people to come together in mutual submission, looking toward one another's interests, that's for certain. Marriage, and being a mom, and step-mom has driven me to God.
It's also given tons of love, joy, companionship, all of that. I would so do it all over again.
Grace.
Okay, I need to vent. We live in CA, and we went to a workshop tonight about CA's registered domestic partner laws.
bottom line is we're screwed.
If we register as DPs in CA, then we file a joint tax return in CA with community property.
But the IRS at the Fed level considers us single, so that community property? Taxable under gift tax laws, quite possibly.
Legally, the CPAs don't know whether they should list the joint income on the single returns or not. Obviously enormous tax mess: obligate joint return in state, obligate single out of it.
That's just one example.
Okay, so if we DON'T register?
Get this, the IRS will tax us for gift tax because we live together.
yes, folks, your govt considers that our relationship should be an opportunity to tax us, should one of us give the other the equivalent of more than 12 grand a year. As if, oh, one of us owns the house and the other one lives there. Or that joint bank account: apparently we're in real trouble if we don't keep a major paper trail about whose dollar bills paid what.
Married people, do you ahve to worry about being taxed for supporting each other?
I am SOOOOoooo pissed that my relationship, my love, is simply a taxable relationship to the IRS.....all those people who think GLBT shouldn't "marry" are probably happy that we not only have no protections but we actually have to PAY for the evil of living together.
Not to mention the lawyers fees for trusts and powers of attorney and all that stuff.
So not only am I treated as second clss I have to pay for it too.
Right now, I hate this country and all the bigots in it. Most of whom I'm sorry to say claim to be "christian".
IT
Sorry to hijack your thread, Doxy, but here's a counter to my previous post (cross postd at Jake's)
In San Diego, the City Council narrowly voted to support a amicus brief in favor of gay marriage for teh case now going to the CA Supreme Court.
The mayor planned to veto this resolution.
And then this.
The mayor has surprised everyone by acknowledging that he cannot disenfranchise his gay daughter.
Now THAT'S an epiphany.
IT
IT--you aren't hijacking. And I'm sick about your discovery. I really don't know what is wrong with people, that they are willing to countenance such unfairness.
I don't blame you for hating Christians. There's not a one of us who really lives up to what we say we believe.
The rest of you are making me weepy for a different reason...
Carry on.
(And thank you for your willingness to share your stories. I'm so jaded right now that it's good to be reminded that there ARE some happy marriages in the world.)
Okay, Doxy, I'm double-dipping. My first marriage was for sex, and that's pretty much all I got out of it except the fear that the police would walk in the door and confiscate everything I/we owned.
My second marriage was to my best friend, and I miss him terribly. But, being married was hell. He is brilliant and poetic and romantic (even when he knew I wasn't "the one"). But, over the 16 years we were married, he threatened to leave so many times, I quit counting...then decided nothing else was any better. We went through a lot of good times and way too many bad ones. We never had children; so I can't address the "family business" partnership. But, being married is not easy. It does take a lot of luck, the willingness to listen, the ability to laugh at oneself, honesty, and sometimes, even with that, marriage just doesn't work - basic assumptions wrong, growth in different directions.
What's important now is that those of us who are divorced or divorcing live in the now. We can't live in la-la land because we have responsibilities and because la-la land doesn't exist. It never did.
And, what to tell your children? You teach them how to be honest, able to listen and to talk about their feelings, willing to compromise, finding a safe confidant (a therapist, priest, etc), luck, sex, differentiating happiness from boredom, recognizing that tomorrow is another day and with it comes changes, the importance of doing things together, the unconditional acceptance of another, the fact that we can't change anyone else - that's an inside job. And, you talk about the deep contentment that can come after years of marriage or the moments of it that come all along the way. You talk about anger and anger management. But, then, you're doing that all the time. It's about how you live your life that will teach them how to live theirs. And, even if you don't live in the way you'd like, your words will still have an effect.
Much compassion being sent your way.
I don't hate Christians, Doxy, i'm married to one! I despise bigots, I merely noted that many of the bigots claim to be Christians, as though Christ=love has anything to do with their bigotry.
Their bigotry is infesting your religion. Got some anti-bigot bug spray?
For an example of mutual hatred, check out the comments following this story about San Diego Mayor Sanders, from the loathesome infestation of Bigotry in a town that dubs itself "America's finest city".
IT
My marriage has fallen apart, so at the moment I'm not too keen on the idea of marriage. I did find your statement in regards to luck quite comforting, though. I worked as hard as I could at my marriage, was fully committed, and determined to make it work. He wasn't. One person cannot hold a marriage together. One person shouldn't feel responsible for holding a marriage together, because that's not fair to either party. These are things I'm learning, day by day.
That said, I do still believe in marriage. I do believe that if both partners are committed to making it work through the good times and the bad, it can be a beautiful thing. I'm inspired by my parents' marriage and the way they've always stuck together through joys and sorrows. I believe that there is such a thing as a lifetime commitment for those who are lucky enough to find the right partner. It can be a wonderful addition to life. But it is not necessary for fulfillment. That has to come from within.
((Doxy))) and (((IT)))
Grace.
Then I saw her face
Now I'm a believer
Not a trace
Of doubt in my mind
I'm in love (oooohhh yeaaaah)
I'm a believer
I couldn't leave her
If I tried
Love what people are posting here. So real. So much pain and hope... even for those who don't believe or don't know what they believe... the conversation fills me with hope.
Pax, C.
Hi Doxy!
I was married for five years to someone who fit all my criteria, and it was awful. I left. Clearly I had the wrong criteria--and he had his stuff, which is not mine to share.
Then I married someone I trusted in my gut, someone to whom I could and did say anything, someone who promised with me and to me to work it out and grow up together. Honesty, intimacy, passion, and loyalty during the times when passion is in flux have kept us together for over two decades. I think we will stay together: we learned to weather enormous crises early in our relationship, and we agreed to keep working things out.
We make sure there is time to talk. We make each other the primary person. We are infertile, which makes that easier, though the grief was enormous and could have split us up.
It's part determination, part luck, a lot of grace, and I never take it for granted.
There was a time a few years ago when someone attractive made a move and I realized I wouldn't accept because without my marriage, I wouldn't be the person the outsider wanted. That, more than anything, made me realize we were really married.
We get up every day and decide again to be married. We keep making that choice. The possibility that one of us may someday choose otherwise is always there because we have free will-but we have a history of choosing each other.
Nina
Thanks for that one, Nina.
Is your marriage what you thought it would be when you made the commitment? And would you do it over again?
I found this comment interesting Doxy, because it was in very definitely not carrying an expectation as to what it would/should be that I felt so important when we got together. I was probably not an average 20 yr. old when I said to my wife to be "I'm not going to say that I love you, that's too big and I don't know yet if I'm up to it. I am prepared to commit to learning to love you through the rest of our lives together."
There is luck in the mix too, but we have had precious little of that, in the last 21 years .
With the same person, yes I'd do it again. If she were taken from me then no, I don't think I would do it again. The happiness I feel is certainly not in financial/legal security, we have less now than when we were married. I have lost my job 3 times and we lost our first house as a result. The happiness rests in the security and stability of relationship, that there is someone who remains a constant feature of my life when all else shifts so precariously.
Last year I helped a couple we have known for a similar period of time get through the break up of their marriage. They asked repeatedly what it was that kept us together. I don't know, I had to tell them. There are lots of characteristics to it but none of them jointly or sevrally provide any magic answer. Human relationships, personal and societal are ultimately chaotic. Sometimes we understand bits of the universe and can tweek it to our needs, othertimes it remains a mystery.
Marci and I are one of the lucky couples, I guess. October 13th will be our 28th anniversary.
We did a lot of things contrary to popular wisdom. We were young when we got married (both 20). We hadn't known each other that long - 16 months. We didn't 'try each other out' by living together first. And we had our first child nine days before our first anniversary.
Still, here we are, 28 years later.
If you are married, are you really happy?
Yes. I don't know how to define 'happy', although I know that I am of a melancholic temperament and don't especially have the talent for happiness. But my marriage is a happy marriage. Marci and I genuinely like each other; she is my best friend, and we love each other with a depth that we could never have imagined 28 years ago in those heady days of first romance.
Mind you, we will love each other, too - keeping in mind that the words in the marriage service are "I will" not "I do". I remember that in the Bible love is a choice and an action, not a feeling.
Is your marriage what you thought it would be when you made the commitment? And would you do it over again?
No - I'm delighted to have been surprised by it. I started out with a very traditional patriarchal view of marriage. But my patient and persistent wife has gradually changed my mind - well, and a few other circumstances too.
I don't want to do it again because I don't want to start again at year one! 28 years of hard-won experience isn't something I want to give up.
How much of your support for marriage is based on the legal and financial protections it gives you?
Question not very applicable in Canada, as common-law unions have pretty well the same protections as marriages here.
Most important---what do you tell your children about marriage in this day and age?
Or, what do they tell me? On our 25th anniversary our oldest daughter wrote this on our card: 'Love is 95% persistence. You two are the most persistent people I know'.
I tell them that love is a choice not a feeling. I tell them to make things happen rather than waiting to see what happens.
I tell them that marriage is meant to make us holy more than it's meant to make us happy, and so difficulty and struggle aren't an interruption to the plan, they are part of the plan.
I tell them that every part of the teaching of Jesus is applicable to marriage and that the best way to make a marriage work is for both partners to do their level best to put the teaching of Jesus into practice with each other every day - loving, forgiving, serving, being gracious and merciful and so on.
And I tell them to be smart about their priorities. One of the things I love about my wife is that she has an unerring sense of what's important and what's not. I'm more likely to chase off after the latest thing. Not her She sticks to the important stuff.
'Nuff said. Thanks for asking.
I have the perfect mate, and am so blessed. With that said, the 'legal protections' you speak of make marriage an unworkable institution in our culture. I cannot honestly reccomend to any working person, especially males, that they enter into an endeavor that, on the odds ends with their spouse seeking divorce, leaving with half their assets, their children, and most of their income, and rendering them without recourse or rights. Marriage is challenging, and with a free meal card on the other end of saying 'I quit', far too many will say 'I quit'. It ain't for the faint of heart, that is for sure. You have to be willing to be gutted, have the generosity of a saint, or be blind as a bat. A combination of the three helps.
Peace
Doxy,
Great post and fascinating thread.
I especially liked Jarred's comments. But I feel with and for almost everyone here.
I have felt for several months now that you beat yourself up unnecessarily over being divorced.
I don't know how to help you heal that, but I can give you feedback.
Your feeling seems to be, "I love Jesus, and Jesus didn't like divorce and said we shouldn't do it, and I've been divorced twice, and God, I'm such a lowlife. I didn't do what Jesus said to do."
You're focusing too much on one teaching (in the most legalistic Gospel, Matthew, aimed at converting the People of the Law) and not enough on God's love for you. That didn't change because you got divorced!
I bet you were right to get divorced. Both times.
So why would God love you less because of it?
The best thing that ever happened to me was when my parents finally got divorced!
(One of the worst days was when they remarried each other and I had to facilitate that. But it didn't last, thanks be to God; my father was still as violent as ever and that time my mother threw him out once and for all.)
If divorce didn't exist we'd have to invent it, if only to save the lives of beasts and children.
So forgive yourself already; you did the right thing.
Plus you have two gorgeous, smart and talented children. I can still picture us at dinner at that barbecue place, being impressed with your kids' social skills and intelligence. If the kids are part of your guilt trip, get over it, because four months ago, they were doing just fine.
Having a strong, smart and independent mother (as mine was) who can function and make decisions and do the right thing shapes children in good ways that last a liftime.
Your kids have the added gift of a father they respect and love. Kudos to him for that, from someone who loved his father but could not respect him.
###
I was 30 before I realized there actually are happy families. That was quite a revelation.
Later I came to be adopted (after a fashion) into another happy family, although their history was kind of rocky. It seems that at one point Mom fell in love with the preacher, so she left kith and kin to run away to Hawaii with him; but Dad hopped a plane and caught up with her, talked her out of it and brought her home. They worked it out.
He developed heart problems not long after that, and she nursed her husband and guarded her chicks for 25 straight years.
She also became, when I knew her, the mother of Cincinnati's entire LGBT community. Everyone knew Martha; she dressed up as a speakeasy "cigarette girl" passing out condoms in Gay bars; she was at all the fundraisers and marches and protests. Once she and Bob even cross-dressed at a Stonewall event in Union Terminal; these two old Straight people had the time of their lives nurturing "their kids."
Bob was a conservative businessman, but Martha was an activist, so where she went, he went. Her God was his God, and her people his people.
THAT was a marriage.
It's all about commitment, which must be equally shared and cannot be one-sided. Even if you try running away with the preacher, I'll come and get you. Whatever it is, let's work it out.
BUT if Jesus had known that Gay men would marry Straight women, he'd never have said what Matthew reported. Such marriages are not failures; their foundations don't last, but while they do, and even afterwards when charity prevails, they are stunning successes. Sometimes, you even get beautiful kids.++
I must say, being a 22 year old male who has all but lost confidence in ever finding a women that will ever treat him like a decent person for a (life)long period of time, reading these short stories and pieces of feedback have really set things into a more solid perspective for me.
I think the biggest thing I have been able to confirm is being 100% up front about everything, and not being able to build up a resentment for the other person.
Unfortunately, even though I had an idea about this for a while, and even tried it on my last relationship, she didn't feel she needed to be up front about some things (like visiting her ex all night, leading to our eventual falling out and their getting back together) despite how happy she told me she was with me.
What I really don't get however, is how most of you can leave things up to God. I know you don't all go out and use God's will to find your mate, you find one on your own accord.
Thanking God for a divorce of your parents because "he permitted your father to still be violent" is an awful way to think of how things work in this world. It's good to use religion as a guide for ones life and to stay on the "good" track, but please don't further your suffering by pinning certain things on Someone you have Faith in, and use them as in excuse of why your life is going the way its going.
We are all responsible for ourselves, in the end.
Chris--thanks for your comment.
I will point out, however, that Josh was NOT thanking God for making his father violent. Josh was thanking God that the second marriage of his parents didn't work out. God had nothing to do with Josh's father's violence--but maybe God had everything to do with Josh's mother's refusal to live with it anymore.
Good luck to you in your quest for love.
Pax,
Doxy
Thank you for pointing that out Doxy, I'm afraid I didn't read carefully enough and got my posts mixed up.
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