How long do you want to live?
Eileen's post today inspired me to ask the question. Believe it or not, that question is a frequent topic of discussion for me and one of my walking buddies. We often meet at 6:00 a.m. (or even earlier, depending on the time of year) to do a 4-mile loop around my old neighborhood. We talk about a lot of stuff on those walks...
My friend and I both recoil in horror at the idea of living to be 90 or 100. I guess we've both seen too many relatives reach the point where they are breathing, rather than living.
It's easy, of course, to make declarations in a vacuum---when the choices you think you'd make are all abstract and don't really affect your life. But, at this point, I think that I would probably refuse major medical treatment after 70 or so. I'd do pain alleviation or minor things that would make me comfortable, but heart surgery? Treatment for breast cancer? I'm just not sure I would.
I'm not afraid of dying. In fact, I am much less afraid of dying than I am of suffering or reaching a point where I am dependent on others for all my needs.
I know this is a form of pride---and pride is a sin. I tell myself that a lot. But I have a gut-level, negative reaction to the idea that breathing/existing is to be gripped with both hands, no matter what the cost.
I certainly would never impose my views on anyone else---most particularly not on any relative or other person in my care. But I don't want to live forever.
I'm too interested to see what comes next to want to remain trapped here in a body that exists but cannot live a life that feels meaningful to me.
What do YOU say?
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19 comments:
Well..I'd like to live as long as I can, as comfortably as I can. I wouldn't agree to major surgeries in my old age if I didn't feel strong enough to benefit from them.
But, I'd like the luxury to have my discomforts/big health decisions start past age 70.
Plenty of 35-40 yo's with debilitating illnesses. They are dependent on others, living in pain - but have most of their friends, children and family living around them.
I think I'll take the years God gives me, and pray for the strength to meet the challenges I'm charged to meet in that life - be they physical or emotional or both.
But, I do agree, at some point, the benefits need to be weighed against the costs. Bottom line analysis. Especially for really invasive or painful medical procedures.
Doxy, once you've turned 70, your gauge of the cut-off age for major medical treatment may change.
I'd definitely have treatment for breast cancer. I'd probably have heart surgery.
I'm not afraid of dying, but being in reasonably good health at the ripe old age of 72, soon to turn 73, I'm not ready to hang it up.
Of course, if God has other ideas, I may not have a choice.
I would not like to be a burden to anyone, but I am not at that point yet.
On my mom's side we have some serious longevity. She's 79 now and in perfect health, full of vim and vigor, or piss and vinegar depending on the day. I definitely want her to keep living long and well. I have known several women in their 90s who continued to live in their own homes, gardening and cooking and playing instruments and coming to church and I have loved knowing and visiting them.
I'd love to be 90 some day, especially if I can still laugh and sing. I certainly agree with not hanging on to life that isn't really life and I hope I'll be ready to die graciously whenever that time comes. I don't want extradorinary measures to keep me breathing if I'm mostly gone. I'll take hospice over the hospital if that time comes. I hope I never try to cling to life, but I also hope to enjoy it for as many days as I can.
I think, like Blake:
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour...
Why would I need forever when I have Eternity?
I'm always surprised by the intense reaction this topic causes for me.
Part of it, I think, is that I've had some pretty difficult family experiences around end-of-life issues. My stepfather, whom I mentioned in an earlier post, was diagnosed with cancer the day after Christmas in 1996. Apparently it had started in his lungs, but had moved to his colon, and his pancreas.
When we were told about the pancreatic cancer, I knew it was over for him. I don't know about now, but at that time there was simply no treatment for pancreatic cancer.
No one wanted to tell him that there was no hope, and his doctor threw the enire chemotherapy suitcase at him. His last few months were miserable, for no good reason. He died in April 1996--less than 4 months after his diagnosis.
My grandfather, OTOH, spent his last 10 years suffering from dementia, and the last 6 years bed-ridden. He died of complications of a stroke at 81---3 weeks after a doctor guilted my grandmother into putting in a feeding tube. His brain was blown, but the doctor said "If you don't put in this tube, he'll starve to death." It was awful.
But the women in my family live quite long lives. My grandmother will be 82 next month. She suffers from poorly controlled diabetes and high blood pressure, but she is still very active and completely in charge of her faculties.
She agrees with me, BTW. She has already said she won't do anything major at this point.
She had back surgery a few years ago to correct a compressed disc and it made a HUGE difference in her quality of life. That is what I was thinking about when I said I would do things to alleviate pain.
When I said 70, I have plenty of reason to believe that I might not have any serious health issues until I'm in my 80s anyway---but it *is* interesting to contemplate setting some arbitrary date...
It's funny, as I was typing this post, I was listening to MP's Laura Nyro link, and this song came on:
I'm not scared of dying
I don't really care
If it's peace you find in dying
Well, then let the time be near
If it's peace you find in dying
When dying time is here
Just bundle up my coffin
Cause it's colder down there
When I die
And when I'm gone
There'll be one child born
In the world to carry on.
Doxy, I'm so sorry for what your grandfather, and in particular your stepfather, had to go through.
What frightens me is the idea of being helpless -- dependent on other people for the basic stuff of life. My mom is the same age as your grandmother (I was a late-in-life baby) and she is quite independent. But last summer she broke her arm, and for about a month we saw what it might be like for her to not be able to live on her own. It's a depressing prospect. But then, should we ever get to that point, who knows how we might feel? I could turn out to be one of those "rage against the dying of the light" types. I won't know until I get there -- hopefully not for a while.
Like lj above, I also have many, long-lived people in my family who remained quite spry into advanced old age.
So the prospect of being in my 90's doesn't scare me per se, long as I have reasonable health and most of my mental faculties intact.
Interesting post, I understand your struggle with not wanting to simply breathe but to really live and the thought that being helpless and trapped in a body and unable to communicate effectively fills me with horror...
I guess we have to live withn the tensions I can come up with arguements both for and against euthanasia.
My health has been less that wonderful for a large chunk of my life. Because of this I have a hard time imagining living till I'm very old. I sometimes half-joke with my husband that another 10 years will be enough for me.
Seriously though, as long as I can take care of myself I'm happy to live. When the time comes that I cannot, it will be time to move on.
Boy that sounds depressing.
Hey Doxy, Because I only scored 16 on the "how nerdy are you" quiz, I have issues with computers. I can't access your email because when I click on "email" it kicks me to an email system I'm not in, rather than bringing up your email in my system. I sure there is a way to short-circuit this, but in the meantime, you can email me at revlauraj AT yahoo DOT com.
I've e-mailed you, LJ.
Kay--I write about this as someone in reasonably good health. In fact, my health is better now at 44 than it's ever been---I exercise, I'm at my "ideal" weight, don't smoke, etc. I eat like crap, but it hasn't caught up with me just yet. I have a minor case of carpal tunnel and a bum knee and ankle, but nothing that really hurts me all the time or impedes what I REALLY want to do.
So please forgive me if I was offensive. It's always a gamble to talk about stuff like this, because everyone's experience is so different.
Sally--the interesting thing about my grandfather is that, although I think he would have been horrified at where he ended up, he was--by and large--apparently quite content in his dementia. That's the only thing that gives me pause--I have such a strong attachment to my "intellect" (for lack of a better word), but he seemed quite happy in those years. It was much harder on us than it was on him, I think.
So please forgive me if I was offensive. It's always a gamble to talk about stuff like this, because everyone's experience is so different.
You were in no way, shape, or form offensive. No worries. No need to forgive anything.
Did I come across like I was offended? I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to.
This isn't such a hot topic for me - eternal life in this body with it continuing to age seems a bit ridiculous. I'm having a good time since a good doctor fixed up my lungs, and I'm looking forward to Grandmere Mimi's decade.
As I said on Eileen's blog, I think I'll be one of those people who arrive in heaven saying, "Whew! What a ride!"
my grandparents lasted quite well into their late 80s. I think I would like to follow in their footsteps or even make it longer. Granddaddy used those last years after retirement to travel a little and read voraciously.
I think I will be furiously trying to get one last chapter read of some book as they are trying one more time to use the paddles and bring me back again.
No, wait, I'll say. I have more to read. And besides, I have yet to finish Proust. Keep resuscitating until I know what happens to Marcel! RUHFFP will be on the outside of my patient chart: Resuscitate until he finally finishes Proust.
Heh. Dennis is right. Advanced bibliophilia can result in all sorts of bizarre behavior.
And I should know... ;)
"So many books, so little time..."
I worked as an intensive care nurse and as a nurse in an oncology clinic for most of my work life, so I have weird ideas on this subject.
I want to live as long as I'm alive. Period. And I get to decide what "alive" means. When I was younger, we nurses all wanted to tatoo DNR (do not recessitate) on our chests. Now, I don't want that. I have a reason to stay in this life--my grandchildren. I want to see them grow up. I want to give them my hard earned, sage advice. But, if I am in such a state that I can't, so be it. I have a place to be that is wonderful if I can't be with my babies.
My family on both sides tends to die in their 70's. I will be 50 this year, so that is a wonderful clarification on how much I time I have to write what I want, pass on what I want. I have seen in my work how temporary life can be. I know how easily it can be snatched away. I have made decisions on staying in certain situations with that in mind.
I also know many people who continue to work, play golf, and do exactly what they want to do in their 80's and even 90's. One of my EfM buddies turned 90 this year, and stopped EfM only because she can't see to read anymore--but she sure can discuss it. God bless her. I want to be like that when I grow up. I use folks like her instead of family members as role models as I see that as ideal. Again, living as long as I'm alive.
That's my two cents on the issue.
Hey, Doxy, time to start something new! Are you busy living life or something? LOL
I'm busy trying to get divorced, and I can't tell you how painful it is...sigh.
I'm debating over whether to blog about it. At this point, I'm just tired of talking about it and want it to be over (this is the "hard thing" I alluded to last week...).
So please pray for all of us, if you will. That we can find a way to be kind to one another and get on with the business of living. Right now, kindness is in short supply on his end, and patience is in short supply on mine. :-(
OK, Doxy, keep that sweetness alive and it will give you patience. Lindy over at Two Fruits in the sukka tells us about a transdermal grace patch that automatically transmits grace when you need it. We could all use one of those. You're in my love and prayers.
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